Test-Scratch-Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive 1

Welcome!
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Hi everyone! Welcome to the Test Wiki, the home of many future wikis!

Edit: For better organization, please see: ToDo in the sidebar.

To Do List:

-moved to different page- ErnieParke (talk) 22:18, 20 October 2015 (MEST)
 * Thank you very much for your help to create this wiki Ernie! Mtwoll (talk) 22:51, 20 October 2015 (MEST)

It's my pleasure. I want to see what this Wiki will turn into. ErnieParke (talk) 03:56, 21 October 2015 (MEST)
 * Awesome, thank you for all your work :3 - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 14:13, 21 October 2015 (MEST)


 * For the ToDo: http://howto.scratch-wiki.info/ should be updated! - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 14:15, 21 October 2015 (MEST)

Feel free to add on to the To-Do list LiFay! :) ErnieParke (talk) 15:39, 21 October 2015 (MEST)


 * I changed your edits to DACH-, hope you agree!
 * I made a general Scratch_Wiki:ToDo that we can use in the future
 * Mtwoll (talk) 20:25, 1 November 2015 (MET)

Coming soon
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Pretty soon, this Wiki is going to receive the ConfirmAccounts extension. I plan on using this Wiki to test various features and receive community feedback before deploying them to the language-specific Wikis (after I test for bugs and stuff on my own server, of course). Stay tuned for more as I have time! Jvvg (talk) 03:40, 21 October 2015 (MEST)
 * I'm looking forward to it! BTW: Can you technically help LiFay to translate the parts of the ConfirmAccounts-Plugin texts in the DACH-Scratch-Wiki that can't be translated on the wiki-side? There are some German texts that we want to change, but we don't know where to do it. I think there are some files that only can be translated with FTP-connection, or am I wrong about that? Mtwoll (talk) 20:20, 24 October 2015 (MEST)

WikiEditor
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Can you install WikiEditor extension? It is a really good tool. --JayceeMinecraft (talk) 22:01, 21 October 2015 (MEST)
 * Is it relay important? Could you give some arguments why we need it? ("It is a really good tool" is no argument). Why did you give no links to the Plugin? Which wikis use it? Perhaps it is relay a good idea to install that Plugin...I don't know...I only know that every plugin we add could cause dangers of php-injection that we already had at the German scratch-wiki: It was lots of work to get rid of the php-virus that we think was caused by php-injection through a poor written Plugin we installed without thinking about the dangers. So I would say: Just add really established PlugIns that are used in Wikipedia or the other scratch-wikis. And: Deciding to install a PlugIn can be a long process... I think there is much work to do here before the process will be finished. Mtwoll (talk) 20:09, 24 October 2015 (MEST)

WikiEditor is already installed with the mediawiki package. All you need to do is to put require_once "$IP/extensions/WikiEditor/WikiEditor.php"; in LocalSettings.php then it will be there. WikiEditor is an upgrade for the editing toolbar at the top of the editing box. --JayceeMinecraft (talk) 09:05, 25 October 2015 (MET)
 * OK, done :-) Mtwoll (talk) 15:10, 25 October 2015 (MET)

First Test for building separate language spaces
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I made first tests for building separate language spaces, by copying some articles of the existing wikis here, but changing them by "replace" in an editor so, as when they were articles of "new language test wikis" here.

If we start to create the international test wiki, we (or the native speakers of that language) can follow the path of "best practice" we explored by experimenting with that method: So e.G. Italian would use language space "it", Spain would use the language space "es", french would use the language-space "fr" and so on.

First Examples
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Please enlarge the existing and add more examples to find out what is the best method. Later we could perhaps use bots for that transfer...
 * Hauptseite
 * Scratch_Wiki_Home
 * Halaman Utama

Replacements made for transferring to test wiki
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Example: [:de:]] to test: : To do so for Indonesian just replace "de" with "id" and so on.
 * reaplace  [[  by  [[:de 
 * so all german articles are in a separate "de:"-namespace
 * replace  {{  by  {{/de 
 * so all german templates are in a separate ":template/de"-namespace

Advantages of the method

 * We have exact rules for the language communities how to build up their wiki
 * The transferring in both directions could be automatic by bots: You can transfer an existing wiki complete to "test wiki" for having examples and you can transfer an wiki from "test wiki" to the "real wiki", when it is ready to be established in reality

Questions to be answered
(I already wrote down some arguments, please add your thoughts an arguments)
 * Is the replace-method explained above relay the right choice?
 * There is no "real choice" concerning the templates, because there seem to be only one option for the ":template"-namespace, so you only can divide this namespace by "/" not by ":", else the templates wouldn't work with parameters and so on
 * There could be the alternative to divide the article namespaces by "/" instead of ":" That has disadvantages for searching (because you can search in a separate ":"-namespace but not in an "/"-separated room.
 * should English articles use the "en"-namespace of the test-wiki or should they use the base namespace without "en"
 * Advantage: English is the "original wiki", perhaps it's easier to handle it special: It also would be easier to copy English articles here as a template for translation
 * Disadvantage: Why handle English language other than other languages, that's not stringently and gives an wrong example at the test wiki
 * should English templates use the "en"-namespace of the test-wiki or should they use the base namespace without "en"
 * Advantage: see "articles" + it's much easier to build "copytranslate" English articles when you don't have to care for the templates at the beginning: Just let the templates English and care for the translation of the article first. Just after the language-community has a lot of articles they can try to think about templates.
 * How to deal with Interwiki-Links
 * We could try to create two Interwiki-link-methods per language for the test-wiki: One could be directed to the corresponding article in the test-wiki, the other one could be directed to the corresponding article in wiki of that language (if it already exist): If possible we could use Articlename to connect to the real wiki and de:de:de:Articlename to the test-wiki, because Articlename is already used for the language-space of the original article.

What do you think?

Mtwoll (talk) 17:26, 24 October 2015 (MEST)


 * 1). Is the replace-method explained above really the right choice?


 * I'm not sure what you're talking about here, to be truthful...


 * 2). should English articles use the "en"-namespace of the test-wiki or should they use the base namespace without "en"


 * I would say en: is best for English wiki articles to act as an example for other languages. Only pages that are not for one wiki only should use their base name (without "en" "ru" ect...)


 * 3). How to deal with Interwiki-Links


 * Why would we even need to Interwiki to the test wiki? I can see why we might move some de, id, en articles over for testing purposes, but wouldn't we remove them afterwards? I don't see any purpose to them...
 * ErnieParke (talk) 02:38, 25 October 2015 (MET)

1) With "replacement method" I mean the set of rules described in

2) I completely agree!

3) You are right: If we have no Interwiki we don't have any decisions to be made about it. Also, if we use "en:Articlename" as a normal articlename and not a Intwerwiki-Link to the English wiki, it's not possible to use Interwiki in the traditional way. But if we have no Interwiki here, we also loose some big advantages, like easy referring to the other wikis (not only in articles but also in discussions and technically pages)! e.g. I planed to transfer de:Scratch-Wiki:Watch here (I think here is a better place than in the DACH-Scratch-wiki) and that would not work without Interwiki. You can't even write en:userErnieParke here: I don't like this state. And perhaps we make this state non-"undo-able" by switching to the concept I described in . Perhaps someone has an idea to solve that?

Mtwoll (talk) 07:44, 25 October 2015 (MET)

Interwiki Bot Mass Edit Warning
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Tomorrow, in the morning (anytime 10-12 EST) and possibly afternoon ( anytime 3pm - 9 pm) I will be running Interwikibot to move all english wiki template and images to here.

Edit:On Hold ErnieParke (talk) 03:15, 25 October 2015 (MET)
 * Generally: Great! But: By doing first experiments with manual copying from the "real wikis" to this "test wiki" I found out that we have to think, discuss and make decisions about Automatic replacements when transferring articles and templates between "real wikis" and this "test wiki".


 * With the English wiki it's somewhat easier, because the "base language" of this "test wiki" is also English. With Wikis of other languages it's more difficult, because they have also many "mediawiki syntactic"-words that are translated, e.g. Scratch logo.png could be [[Datei:Scratch logo.png|rechts]] in the German DACH-scratch-wiki (using the "wikis-base-language" for Mediawiki-syntax is optional, alternative you also could use English, but in DACH-wiki we use German language for that).


 * But also concerning transferring the English wiki here there are some decisions to be made (and I think we didn't experiment enough until now, to have a complete picture) : Most important is, if English templates shall have a separate namespace (not a real ":"-namespace, else templates would not work, but the "/"-namespace (I hope you understand even with my bad knowledge of English ;-). In the moment I tent to "no namespace for English templates". Perhaps you do some manual experiments yourself and define a written set of replacement rules here: I'm also very keen on the result of your "bot-based-mass-transfer", but perhaps we could avoid problems if we experiment and think a little bit more before doing something that has no easy "undo"... Mtwoll (talk) 06:54, 25 October 2015 (MET)

a) I can test this on my bot first. I would put in what I want it to do, and the bot would say what it wanted to do (but not actually do it). Would you like to see a list of what it would do?

b) Anyway, I don't see a problem with mediawiki syntactic words. New wikis can use File: until we transfer them to their own website. I think I could even swap out File: with Datei: with InterwikiBot (given some testing and research first).

c) Why are we transferring the English Wiki here? Isn't the Test Wiki for new language wikis (Arabic, Chinese, Ukrainian), not established wikis (English, DACH, Japanese)?

d) I would think putting English templates at Template:En/Name sounds good. Also, Image:En_Name sounds good. What do you think?

e) By the way, thank you for commenting. I did not know of these problems. ErnieParke (talk) 16:25, 25 October 2015 (MET)


 * a)1) Yes, testing is always good. If you want and it's not much effort for you, you could have me a look at your testing results before doing it in reality. I would also trust in your abilities without having a look, so it's completely up to you to decide if a "second look" helps or slows down things that could be easier changed after seeing the result. Mtwoll (talk) 10:50, 26 October 2015 (MET)


 * b)2) I agree


 * c)3) Transferring the English Wiki (or parts of it) here could give a good example how articles of non-existing wikis must be changed in comparison to the "real wiki". Replace Articlename with Articlename is easier to understand tahn explaning it in an other way to an scratcher from italy. Mtwoll (talk) 10:50, 26 October 2015 (MET)


 * d)4) Yes, so you can decide which templates an pictures did come from the English wiki and could be replaced later with native ones.


 * e)5) Your welcome, I don't know many things about Mediawiki either, it's all "leaning by doing". Because I'm used to "non English Wikis" I found out some things more about that, but I think there still is much knowledge missing, that could help us making the "international scratch wiki idea" real: Perhaps tt would help, to get a real experienced member of an existing "wiki farm" like Wikipedia or perhaps Brikimedia aboard.


 * Mtwoll (talk) 10:50, 26 October 2015 (MET)


 * Is everything prepared to let the bot do the job? Is there still something to explore or to decide? Mtwoll (talk) 19:51, 1 November 2015 (MET)

Proposed Edits
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Due to some difficulties, I cannot use Pywikibot (the current InterwikiBot code) to correctly transfer templates from the English Wiki to here. So, I've had to fall back on custom Java code. I am posting the proposed edits here so that others may view them. See: User:InterwikiBot/Proposed Edits ErnieParke (talk) 04:27, 2 November 2015 (MET)


 * I also think the best solution is write own code to transfer templates correctly. It doesn't matter if you would have to use your Java code if the result works.
 * I think it is no good idea to transfer all images. User images, and april fool wiki images should not be transferred if possible
 * Mtwoll (talk)

I followed your advice, and I’m ready to import the templates into the Test Wiki. Before I do, though, can you look at the list of proposed edits? http://test.scratch-wiki.info/wiki/User:InterwikiBot/Proposed_Edits ErnieParke (talk)


 * Does your bot also exchange all calls of templates and pictures to {{en/templatename and [[file.png:en/filename ? what's about categories? Shouldn't we use [[category:en/ also? Anything else to think about?


 * or is


 * [[file.png:en:filename


 * and


 * [[category:en:


 * better?


 * Perhaps we should only use / at


 * {{en/templatename


 * because only templates have the problem that they have to be in the original template namespace to call them, whereas everything else can move to the English namespace... Mtwoll (talk)

This is another good reason why I post the proposed edits first.

Anyways, yes, I can fix the category:en/ and the other naming conventions.

I guess [[category:en:name sounds good, but we cannot do [[file:en:filename because there cannot be a : in the filename. We also cannot do [[file:en/filename. So file:en_filename sounds best. Thoughts? [[User:ErnieParke|ErnieParke]] (talk) 15:25, 2 November 2015 (MET)


 * ...just thinking loud...
 * I see the Problem that it gets more and more complicated for new language authors to change their edits so that they stay within their language-space. If they only use the English templates, pictures and categories it's allright, but if they want to do own ones they must always think of what to replace with what, because it's not only done with the "en:", "de:", "it", "es:"...If we use ":" for articles, "/" for templates and "_" for pictures somebody from e.g. Italy must use :it /it _it...
 * It would be so easy if there would exist a "wiki-farm-Edition" of Mediawiki ready to set up, where you got "en.yourdomain/wiki/Articlename", "de.yourdomain/wiki/Articlename", "it.yourdomain/wiki/Articlename", "es.yourdomain/wiki/Articlename" automatically for all languages and pictures and templates working inside and every language-subdomain and also mixed between different subdomains...perhaps the team mentioned in is working on such an Edition? But waiting for that will last to long for us...
 * At https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki/de they work with putting "/de", "/it", "/es" behind to have the Mediawiki-Manual in all languages: Problem is that the "link of the Article" stay in english...but somehow they managed it at least to have an german Artikle-Name e.G. at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Download/de ....
 * Whatever: We have to make some decision here, so what about a radical solution: The easiest way could be, forget all "language-spaces" of templates, categories and pictures...mix that stuff like you want and make the language-space only within the articles: Late,r if you want to transfer the articles to the real wiki, you parse the articles of a language-space to find all categories, templates and pictures that are needed and transfer only that stuff.
 * The more I think about the more I like the radical solution...it's a little bit of chaos, but it's also very easy...What do yo think? See you at de:SC at 20:00 German time! Mtwoll (talk) 17:28, 2 November 2015 (MET)

Via Scratchclub, we agreed on only templates will be separated by language. Everything else will not.

Also, I finished transferring templates. Yay! :) ErnieParke (talk) 23:44, 2 November 2015 (MET)

Proposed Edits #2
Due to a small bug, InterwikiBot did not transfer all template pages. I fixed that bug. Here are the new proposed edits: Dropbox Link (It make take a few seconds to download.)

It would be really nice if anyone could take a quick look and comment here with their thoughts.

Yes, I know that the proposed edits include the templates that are already transferred. That is okay. - ErnieParke (talk) 02:24, 4 November 2015 (MET)
 * I had a brief look: Looks good to me, but It's so much that you can't tell if there could be bugs inside. I think you should execute it, then we will see. Mtwoll (talk) 02:55, 4 November 2015 (MET)

Okay. The Test Wiki is currently being edited.

Edit: I am putting the transfer on hold for the moment.

Edit #2: Jvvg fixed an issue involving templates and links. I will resume transferring templates. ErnieParke (talk) 03:17, 4 November 2015 (MET)

Proposed Edits #3
After some code overhaul, I can finally transfer selected images from the English Wiki to here. I am trying to move over all images, minus user and April Fools images. The proposed edits are here: Google Docs link

File size: ~590,000 characters

Because the file is so large, what I would like people to do is:


 * Pick a few random edits. Do they look correct? Try to pick a few from the beginning, middle, and end.
 * Is the image url correct?
 * Is the image a user image or april fools image? It should not be.

Edit: Updated. Common Scripts Images and Scratch Cat are somehow in the image category. - ErnieParke (talk) 23:19, 7 November 2015 (MET)
 * I chose three random edits and they were fine :) - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 23:33, 7 November 2015 (MET)
 * I also had a look at a few eduts and they were all right for me. Best you test with increasing numbers of edits like 1-10-100-400-all and control the result with every step. Mtwoll (talk) 06:20, 8 November 2015 (MET)

Okay, I will try that idea!

@Everyone: I will be pushing edits over the next several hours. - ErnieParke (talk) 17:24, 8 November 2015 (MET) Due to some bugs, I will continue transferring images into tomorrow. - ErnieParke (talk) 01:22, 9 November 2015 (MET)

Indent style
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 * Suggestion: I will "reformat" our posts here (marking it with ) when answering to the new indent style until everybody is used to it.
 * Does somebody know how to add a template to click-hide-unhide the long thread below?
 * Mtwoll (talk) 10:31, 2 November 2015 (MET)

I don't think we should use the "Indent style" of the English scratch-wiki in our discussion here, because it has big disadvantages and I would immediately suggesting to change it even in the English wiki to the "Indent style" we use in the German DACH-Scratch-Wiki, if not everybody was used to it there since many years. In the English wiki every new post to a thread gets an indent: After a few posts you are at the end of the line: That makes no scene, because the indent nearly has no information (only: "Here starts a new post"). The DACH-Indent-style is different: Here yo make an indent only if a new author starts posting and every author stays in the number of indents where he started with his first post to the thread. So you are not at the end of the line so fast and you have the additional information to see who did the post with one look.

Examples
Example English Indent Style

I have a suggestion- userA
 * Please tell.. - userB
 * I want o change our indent style - userA
 * Relay? - userB
 * I'm used to the traditional style, where is the advantage? - userC
 * We would have the advantage that we are not at the end of the line so soon.. - userA
 * Is that all? - userB
 * Additionally we see who is posting with "one look" - userA
 * That could be a good idea! - userC
 * Yes, let's try it! - userB
 * Ok, we do it - userA
 * What was this discussion about? I didn't got anything... - userD
 * Please read before you ask ;-) - userC
 * It was about Indent Style - userA
 * And, did you make a decision? - userD
 * yes - userB
 * What? - userD
 * yes, we want to try the DACH-wiki-Indent-style - userB



Example DACH Indent Style

I have a suggestion- userA
 * Please tell... - userB

I want o change our indent style - userA
 * Relay? - userB
 * I'm used to the traditional indent style, where is the advantage? - userC

We would have the advantage that we are not at the end of the line so soon.. - userA
 * Is that all? - userB

Additionally we see who is posting with "one look" - userA
 * That could be a good idea! - userC
 * Yes, let's try it! - userB

Ok, we do it! - userA
 * What was this discussion about? I didn't got anything... - userD
 * Please read before you ask ;-) - userC

It was about Indent Style - userA
 * And, did you make a decision? - userD
 * yes - userB
 * What? - userD
 * Yes, we want to try the DACH-wiki-Indent-style - userB



What do you think? Mtwoll (talk) 08:03, 25 October 2015 (MET)
 * That is not exactly the English indent style. The problem is that not everyone follows it, so it turns into what you posted above. The indent style we use is:

Example English Indent Style

Welcome to the Scratch Wiki! - userA
 * Hello! - userB
 * Welcome to the Scratch Wiki! - userC
 * Welcome! Here are some tutorial links that you might find helpful: Links - userD
 * Thank you a lot! I will read through them in a moment :-D
 * How do you link? - userB
 * You link like this! Page Name  - userC
 * See this page for help: Link - userE

Thank you a lot everyone! - userB
 * You're welcome! - userE




 * Once we hit 6 indents, we outdent to 0 indents and use a template to show that.


 * I support using the DACH indent style for the test wiki because I imagine there won't be too many editors per discussion. ErnieParke (talk) 15:49, 25 October 2015 (MET)

Creation
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Can I help create this wiki? I have done most of the things on the to-do list. :)--JayceeMinecraft (talk) 13:11, 28 October 2015 (MET)
 * Yes, you are welcome! Do you know a language apart from English and Igbo? You could make the start for a Start-Page of this language (like Spain, french or it Italian...). You could also make an Igbo-Start-Page, just to have an example: Perhaps it attracts other People that speak Igbo? Making Start-Pages I would suggest not just to copy the English Start-Page Wikimedia-Code and translate it, because it looks so complicated for starters: I would prefer to change it like we did in the DACH-Scratch-Wiki, to use templates for the boxes.


 * see:
 * Scratch_Wiki_Test_Home


 * Mtwoll (talk) 13:41, 28 October 2015 (MET)
 * @user:JayceeMinecraft: Where are you? Is it only a coincident that you remind my very strong to our new user:U_W_N? Mtwoll (talk) 13:30, 1 November 2015 (MET)

Recent and upcoming software changes
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Today, as some of you noticed, the Wiki was down for a little while so we could upgrade it to the latest version of MediaWiki and then retrofit the skin to work with that version. That went without any problems, and you can now enjoy the new features! (If you want to use the Scratch Wiki Skin on MediaWiki 1.25 or later, you can use my version).

However, that process is only the first step. I had to upgrade the software to lay the groundwork for the next step, which is installing the ConfirmAccounts extension on this Wiki. Once that extension is installed, administrators will be able to review account requests, and we can really start operating this the way it was intended.

If all goes well, the ConfirmAccounts extension will be installed tonight.Jvvg (talk) 20:12, 29 October 2015 (MET) Jvvg (talk) 01:28, 30 October 2015 (MET)
 * Awesome, thank you sooo much!!! - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 22:29, 29 October 2015 (MET)
 * The ConfirmAccounts extension has been successfully installed! I have sent a message in the email chain among the admins here explaining how to use it.
 * Great! user:U_W_N was the first who used it and I would be happy if every new user was so active like him. I would even be more happier if user:U_W_N could be integrated (and integrates himself) good in our community. :-) Mtwoll (talk) 13:20, 1 November 2015 (MET)

How much work do we have left to do...
✅

...before it is time to release our new project? Also, I have a few questions of my own.... to FALSE in local settings until we are done? U W N (talk) 16:17, 31 October 2015 (MET)
 * 1) Does Scratch Wiki in your Native Language have an account on Scratch?
 * 2) Will we be letting just anyone edit, or will anyone who wants to start a wiki get an account?
 * 3) Will the "DACHadmins" group have the CONFIRMACCOUNT right?
 * 4) Should we set
 * 1. No 2. We'll use jvvgs account confirmation system 3. what is the DACHadmins group? 4. No, why should we? Isn't it nice if everything is transparent and our progress is visible for everyone? - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 17:35, 31 October 2015 (MET)


 * 1) May I make one to help announce new things?
 * Ok, but I'm going to request some edits to MediaWiki pages for the circumstances.
 * 1) It's something I asked Jvvg to create.
 * 2) I meant, until it's released. U W N (talk) 18:31, 31 October 2015 (MET)
 * 1. We should have a discussion on this - please create a new heading and ask people to vote :) 3. What is that group for? What is it's purpose? 4. Yes, I understood that, but I don't see why people shouldn't be able to see what we do? - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 19:31, 31 October 2015 (MET)


 * Ok, I will.
 * 1) (nothing)
 * 2) It's so that everyone in charge of coordinating all the wikis (all b'crats and me) can have certain permissions.
 * 3) I'm sorry, I meant to say REQUESTACCOUNT, not VIEW. U W N (talk) 20:52, 31 October 2015 (MET)
 * 1. Great! 3. Which permissions and why are they needed? 4. Ah okay I see what you mean. Still don't see why it's necessary though ... Anyway, I'm really glad you're thinking about this all and contributing so many ideas!! - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 21:35, 31 October 2015 (MET)

3a. So other people can join 3b. So things like the frontpage can be protected at an "us" level 3c. You can only protect at levels you can edit, so no worries 3d. We are the people who help get wikis a'rolling, so we should be able to let others in. 4. Because people don't need to be requesting account right now. U W N (talk) 22:09, 31 October 2015 (MET)
 * 1) (nothing)
 * 2) (nothing)
 * 3) editing the DACHadmins group, a new protection level, protecting pages, and confirming accounts.
 * 3. Hm... But isn't this basically what Admins are doing? Why would we need a special group? Also 4. Why not? We're not an exclusive club are we? If others like you want to join, that'd be great, right? - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 22:59, 31 October 2015 (MET)
 * 3) But anyone who is involved should be able to. 4) Well, I was discussing it with Mtwoll for a long time. U W N (talk) 23:30, 31 October 2015 (MET)
 * 3) But if everyone (and I think more people will join us here) would get the same rights, what would be the sense of page protection and the account system? 4) Well, only because Mtwoll said something doesn't mean I have to agree :P I discuss with him very often, and I really don't see the benefits of turning the accounts system off. - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 09:49, 1 November 2015 (MET)

Please let's focus on our main target!
To avoid misunderstandings about the mentioned "discussions", I cite my mail about that matter here:

Dear U_W_N

 * On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 11:25 PM, mtwoll wrote:
 * ''Dear user:U_W_N,


 * We know nearly nothing about you, there are not much information about you and your work for the community at your userpage at scratch (user since 1 month? https://scratch.mit.edu/users/U_W_N/ ) the scratch forum, at the wiki or at other places (like wikipedia, or a personal blog or something else).


 * Actually the site got no lack admins of any kind see http://scratch-dach.info/wiki/Scratch-Wiki:Watch and: we know all admins and the work they did and the trust they earned since years before they got admin. Nobody can get admin just by asking for it.


 * But: There is enough coordination work to do at the international scratch wiki community and I suggest you apply for http://wiki.scratch.mit.edu/wiki/S:EW, do a good job, earn the trust of the community and get admin right when there is an urgent need for it in the future. If you are interested and did some edits, we can invite you to our ScratchClub, a voicechat the most involved people have every week at monday 20:00 german time: There would be the chance to learn more about each other so that trust could grow faster than just by editing...nevertheless edit work for long time is important...


 * Would you mind to copy this discussion at your talk page and use talk page instead of eMail in the future?


 * best regards/mit freundlichen Grüßen
 * user:Mtwoll


 * I appreciate that user:U_W_N is very active and hope our admins, welcome him friendly as a helpful author with a very good knowledge of Mediawiki, even if IMHO he acted a little "over -involved" when starting and did not read carefully enough before acting e.G. when doing:
 * before reading:
 * or the I can help the most-order instead of alphabetic order at the starting-page


 * But couldn't that happen to all of us?


 * I think it's great to have motivated people with much knowledge of Mediawiki aboard!


 * Nevertheless we must be careful that the "I want to change everything"-way could slow us down instead of increasing speed: Remember that we are not "A Wiki about the joy of being a Wiki-Admin" but "A Wiki to help the international Scratch Community". So for now let's end discussions about:
 * do we have we the right name?" (Nobody disagreed when starting, names's set now IMHO)
 * do we have the right indent-style? (yes, that's me. Reflection helps even in my case ;-)
 * do we need special rights for special people? (user:jvvg: Any problems to set EW up here?)
 * can we have a place for discussing secretely? (Why???? I would be happy if somebody reads it to get involved)
 * can we have this and that specialty that is possible in Mediawiki? (many things could help, but let's keep it simple at the start)
 * ...Please let's save that things for later and focus on our main target: "Helping international Scratchers to build a wiki in their own language".


 * I'm relay happy that we reached so many targets within that short time, now it's still a small step to go public and inviting international Scratchers to start.


 * What do you think is urgently missing (not "nice to have") before going public?
 * Mtwoll (talk) 14:42, 1 November 2015 (MET)
 * We still need a page to invite wikians. It would be easier for users to join if there was a dedicated page to showing them what the Test Wiki is, and how to join. (See the To-Do List above.)
 * Also, we need a page discussing how everything is organized. Currently all of our thoughts are in the Community Portal. - ErnieParke (talk) 05:04, 2 November 2015 (MET)


 * That's right. I reformated-transfered your list above to Scratch_Wiki:ToDo and put it at MediaWiki:Sidebar‎‎ because I think for the future it's easier there than having it as a part of a cp-thread-post
 * Yes, you are right: Perhaps, we need a separate CP for site admins + ew's and a CP for the founders of "a scratch wiki in your language" that we will invite? So user:U_W_N was on the right way, but it doesn't have to be hidden IMHO.
 * What do you think? Mtwoll (talk) 10:19, 2 November 2015 (MET)
 * Well, while it doesn't have to be hidden from "view", I think that only we should get to edit it. U W N (talk) 23:43, 3 November 2015 (MET)
 * I think we should care for that when there is a problem and not invent problems just to care for that: Please let's focus on our main target! Mtwoll (talk) 19:07, 5 November 2015 (MET)

Is "Test Scratch Wiki" really the best name?
✅

The purpose of this wiki started out as a giant sandbox, but it's changed now. Maybe it should be something like "Demo Scratch Wiki" or "Starter" or something. But Test? If people approve, I will change it. U W N (talk) 16:30, 31 October 2015 (MET)
 * I can't really think of a better idea right now. Demo or Starter doesn't seem right to me either... Anyone else an idea? - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 17:29, 31 October 2015 (MET)
 * - Please end that discussion! Mtwoll (talk) 09:29, 2 November 2015 (MET)
 * Mtwoll (talk) 09:30, 2 November 2015 (MET)

Is there a place where....
✅

project coordinators can talk in private? U W N (talk) 17:18, 31 October 2015 (MET)


 * By project coordinators, do you mean admins of this wiki? - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 17:27, 31 October 2015 (MET)

No, I mean everyone here. U W N (talk)
 * Are there secret things you need to talk about? We have a non public voice chat every monday, but we also have a protocoll. You could use emails for private discussions. But I think for everything concerning the wiki we should stay as open and visible as possible so everyone can join the discussion and add their ideas :) - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 19:33, 31 October 2015 (MET)

I don't like voice chat because my mic makes me sound like I'm 7. I was hoping for a private forum of some sort. Could you set that up on something like coordination.scratch-wiki.info/forums or whatever? U W N (talk) 20:52, 31 October 2015 (MET)
 * Why would that be necessary please? We have email, right? - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 21:31, 31 October 2015 (MET)
 * - Please end that discussion! Mtwoll (talk) 09:29, 2 November 2015 (MET)
 * 
 * Mtwoll (talk) 09:30, 2 November 2015 (MET)

Skin Glitch
✅

Logo doesn't appear in the MonoBook skin. To fix, add this code to LocalSettings.php: U W N (talk) 18:35, 31 October 2015 (MET)
 * - alternative skins are not important at the moment. Mtwoll (talk) 10:28, 2 November 2015 (MET)

Mass Template Transfer starting now...
✅

I will now move over some templates from Scratch Wiki rapidly.... U W N (talk) 20:56, 31 October 2015 (MET)
 * Awesome, thanks for your help!!! - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 21:32, 31 October 2015 (MET)
 * - please read
 * - @U_W_N: Please make sure you know about the activities of others by reading the community-portal before acting - else we will block our self Mtwoll (talk) 09:29, 2 November 2015 (MET)
 * Mtwoll (talk) 09:31, 2 November 2015 (MET)
 * I did read it, it's just that none of the templates I wanted were copied, and Ernie said s/he was done, so I did it m'self. And please don't block me just for this. U W N (talk) 01:14, 3 November 2015 (MET)
 * @MartinWollenweber: That sounds a bit harsh.
 * @U W N: We won't block you for this. There would have to be bad intention a few times to merit a block.
 * As for transferring templates, I was not done. I had put the template transfer on hold because there were some pieces of information that still needed to be ironed out. I guess I could have made that more clear. :)
 * However, I am in a pickle when it comes to transferring images here. The goal is to transfer images from certain categories from the English Wiki to the Test Wiki. I have not found any code that can do that (while not transferring every image). Maybe you could help search? - ErnieParke (talk) 03:47, 3 November 2015 (MET)
 * @Ernie + @U_W_N: I didn't talk about blocking accounts. Perhaps I have been misunderstood because English is not my first language: I meant if we don't read what the others do, we are going to block our self by that. One Hand must know what the other hand does, else you block yourself (Don't know if this was understandable? Excuse my poor English) Mtwoll (talk) 12:47, 3 November 2015 (MET)

Should we have an account on Scratch?
✅

Add your name below for what you think:

Yes

 * U_W_N
 * -MysteryMaker-

No

 * LiFaytheGoblin
 * mtwoll: First I thought that's a good idea, but thinking about it I came to the conclusion that for now every member should speak for himself, invite people here and so on. Having a Test-Wiki-Scratch-Account would mean that we have to discuss what to say in the name of all other. It also could cause conflicts because somebody could use that account to speak for all, without asking the others.
 * jvvg - I agree with mtwoll. We should all represent ourselves.
 * ErnieParke - I imagine it would not be hard or time consuming to run this account. I know a friend who runs a Twitter account for an entire club. Members can suggest tweets, and there is very little conflict. However, I do not agree on the grounds that we do not need a wiki Scratch account. I do not see any benefits from this.

U W N (talk) 22:11, 31 October 2015 (MET)
 * But how would we post updates & stuff? (Using someone's main account makes them look more important than others) U W N (talk)
 * If we always post a link to a Wiki-Article that contains the main information, like anybody could do, it's nearly the same then having an account on scratch: We'll have no problem if we post "there is something happening at the Test-Wiki look-here-link" instead of "I'm the big Admin/EW that made following happen: Blablabla..." ;-) Mtwoll (talk) 13:01, 3 November 2015 (MET)

Adding WikiMonitor to this (and other) Wikis
✅

With a fairly small amount of code changes, I could port WikiMonitor to run on other international Scratch Wikis (the messages are actually stored in the Wiki, see the WikiMonitor configuration list for how that works). All I would need is someone to translate the messages and volunteer to host it.

What does everyone think about having WikiMonitor on the other Wikis? jvvg (talk | contribs) 02:35, 3 November 2015 (MET)
 * Sure, but you'd need to make some changes. For starters, I see it makes rapid edit warnings, but those can be commented out due to the new recent changes style. But also, keep in mind that unless you're gonna run it on all the wikis, please don't do it here, because this is "practice" for running one's own wiki. U W N (talk) 06:26, 3 November 2015 (MET)
 * And I guess I could host it if you want. Is it web-server-y or local-computer-y? U W N (talk) 06:27, 3 November 2015 (MET)
 * Great! Also IMHO it's only "nice to have" we would like to test it at the DACH-Wiki...Its not a problem that it uses English when starting before we translate it, because we all speak English there. I hope the translation is possible via wiki-pages and must not be done via FTP? Also it's important that you can switch it of on a wiki-page, so you can get rid of it, if it runs mad and bothers the users. After having some experiences at the German wiki we could suggest it to the admins/main-editors of the other international Wikis. To transfer it here to the test-wiki will bis very difficult if you want to do it right, because the test-wiki uses all languages, not only English.


 * But: There are also some things that are much more important and not only "nice to have" that we should care. Most important is IMHO:
 * Having the Blocks Plugin at every international wiki working in the right language and having it here working in every language (perhaps dependent on the language space "en:","de:","it:","es:" ) see here.
 * Having a Community Portal running at all international wikis
 * Transferring all pictures & templates of the English wiki here by a bot (Ernies's just working on that)
 * Having an alternative (Plugin) for the Hit-Counter that's missing in Media-Wiki >= version 1.25 see here.
 * Mtwoll (talk) 14:00, 3 November 2015 (MET)

@U_W_N: It would basically run here as a test of its portability. It's also more computer-y, but it requires that you have the PHP command-line libraries installed.

@mtwoll: Yes, translating it is possible via changing pages on the Wiki. However, it only supports one language per Wiki. One thing to note is that you actually have to run it in a separate computer (i.e. not the Wiki server). It is possible to disable it on specific Wiki pages using the  template. Also, WikiMonitor is not a high priority, I was just wondering if I should start making sure it's easy to transfer to other Wikis. jvvg (talk | contribs) 17:49, 3 November 2015 (MET)
 * @jvvg By "testing portability" do you mean testing being able to do a find-replace on the wiki URL, import the pages, and see if it works? U W N (talk) 23:28, 3 November 2015 (MET)

http://howto.scratch-wiki.info/ + http://scratch-wiki.info/
✅ ????

I suggest we map the webpages and
 * http://howto.scratch-wiki.info/ to http://test.scratch-wiki.info/wiki/How-To-Scrach-Wiki
 * http://scratch-wiki.info/ to http://test.scratch-wiki.info/wiki/Info

and put the content there. I don't like it, that we cant't edit this pages within a wiki, that one of it doesn't has links and that they looks completely unlike the Scratch-Wikis. We could write protect the How-To-Scratch-Wiki and Info to make sure that normal authors can't edit it. What do you think? Mtwoll (talk) 00:23, 4 November 2015 (MET)
 * You have a point there, (Martin?). Let's move the content to wiki pages and leave redirects on howto.scratch-wiki.info and scratch-wiki.info :) - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 17:07, 3 November 2015 (MET)
 * Moved the howto page. I'll move the other page as well. If we move it to info though we'll need to add more to it. - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 17:33, 3 November 2015 (MET)
 * Yes, except I'm not an admin, and Martin says I won't be becoming one. Why don't you set up the DACHadmins group? (Code is on Jvvg's talk page) U W N (talk) 23:23, 3 November 2015 (MET)
 * @U W N:
 * Where is the connection between your post and LiFays post?
 * In I said you could become an admin, if we know you better and there is a need for new admins (see: Scratch-Wiki:Watch).
 * Also it could be helpful to behave like an admin even before you are one. IMHO admins read much more than they act & edit and when they act & edit they do it cooperative and with much care.
 * I don't know what you mean by "the DACHadmins group"? Do you perhaps mean something like http://wiki.scratch.mit.edu/wiki/S:EW ? Mtwoll (talk) 00:09, 4 November 2015 (MET)


 * @Lifay: I'm happy that you like the idea, I will ask user:de:akhof to do the mapping. Mtwoll (talk) 01:04, 4 November 2015 (MET)
 * No, I meant something along the lines of "everyone who is in the project gets the right", but since you seem to want EWs pretty bad, I asked Jvvg to merge them, what would you think of that? U W N (talk) 16:33, 4 November 2015 (MET)

Giant spaces after templates?
✅ ????

Hi! I found myself writing another list of existing Scratch Wikis so I decided to make a template for it. it's at Template:ListWikis. It seems to create a lot of space after the template though, at least for me: Test_Scratch_Wiki_Home. Do you see it too and if yes: How can I avoid this? - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 17:50, 3 November 2015 (MET)
 * I removed some blank space from the template. Do you like it now? - ErnieParke (talk) 19:59, 3 November 2015 (MET)

Crazy. How comes I didn't see the blank space in the template xD Thank you!! - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 20:08, 3 November 2015 (MET) Ah, I didn't know that counted as blank space x____x - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 20:20, 3 November 2015 (MET)
 * @LiFay: Please excuse for exchanging the list with logos: Info. I hope you like it :-). BTW: I made a NL-SW-Logo (only exchanged one color of the HO one ;-) and put it at NL:.
 * Joek (nl:user:xota) must still translate their wiki-skin there! Mtwoll (talk) 00:12, 4 November 2015 (MET)
 * I've struggled with blank space before. Some cases are really weird... ErnieParke (talk) 02:19, 4 November 2015 (MET)

Ah, Martin, sorry I didn't tell you about my plans :D Your list on Info looks very good for that page. Originally, I wanted to add a flagg in front of each item. Now that both lists are different anyway, I think we don't really need a template anymore, do we? - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 21:49, 4 November 2015 (MET) Also, who made the hungarian and the dutch logo? They're not the final logos are they? - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 21:49, 4 November 2015 (MET)
 * I think we don't really need a template anymore, do we?
 * No
 * who made the hungarian and the dutch logo?
 * HU-Logo was made by the hungarian wikians. NL-Logo was made by me by changing one color of the HU-Logo ;-)
 * They're not the final logos are they?
 * Depends on the wikians of that language
 * Mtwoll (talk) 02:07, 15 November 2015 (MET)

Hit counter extension
✅

I think I found one. Is everyone ok with me installing that here? jvvg (talk | contribs) 17:52, 3 November 2015 (MET)
 * Fine by me. U W N (talk) 23:24, 3 November 2015 (MET)
 * Release status is still experimental - but it's the best we can get. I would agree to install it. Mtwoll (talk) 23:29, 3 November 2015 (MET)
 * I don't care how experimental it is--let's do it! U W N (talk) 23:31, 3 November 2015 (MET)
 * @U W N: I care...and every good admin should do...but I think the risk is acceptable in this case because it's directly connected with the original code of the hit-counter that has been part of MediaWiki up to 1.24. Please always think about that a weak implemented PlugIn can cause the danger of SQL-Injection and virus to our wiki...we had that at DACH...that's nothing we should "risk for fun" Mtwoll (talk) 23:39, 3 November 2015 (MET)

I am making periodic backups (and I am encouraging everyone else that can directly access the database to do so too) in case something does happen. This way I can restore to an earlier date in a matter of seconds. Anyway, I am going to install the extension shortly. jvvg (talk | contribs) 01:44, 4 November 2015 (MET)
 * @jvvg:Sounds good for me. You really got my trust! Please install it also at the DACH-Scratch-Wiki so that http://scratch-dach.info/wiki/Special:PopularPages works again there. Thank you in advance! Mtwoll (talk) 01:54, 4 November 2015 (MET)

Why is there a new user here?
✅

AFAIK, this wiki isn't open yet. U W N (talk) 23:21, 3 November 2015 (MET)
 * de:user:Frodewin is well known by most of us, if you would join de:Scratch-Club like en:user:ErnieParke does (you are heartily invited!), you would also know him. I think he will be a great help as he is in de:. Mtwoll (talk) 23:34, 3 November 2015 (MET)

Interwiki in the Test-Scratch-Wiki
✅

Btw, we should get working interwiki at some point... Red links everywhere- LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 21:41, 4 November 2015 (MET)
 * Would ya like to do it now? Go for it! I ain't gonna stop you. U W N (talk) 04:08, 5 November 2015 (MET)

I don't have the powers to do that xD - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 11:09, 5 November 2015 (MET)
 * Yes you do.. You're a bureaucrat. U W N (talk) 16:14, 5 November 2015 (MET)
 * Beside the Interwiki-Config (Linda this time you should do it, just to find out how it works ;-) there is also an other Problem: We'll use "DE:" "IT:" "ES:" and so on in front of article names to have separate langue-spaces e.G. Hauptseite, so we can't use the same name for Interwiki-Links. Perhaps we could use other names like : "-DE:" "-IT:" :"-ES:" for Interwiki, so -de:Hauptseite could be the Interwiki-Link. We also could think about turn that around to have the Interwiki-Links the same than at all wikis:
 * Advantage:
 * The the PlugIn for the Interwiki-Sidebar will work without changing it
 * You dont't have to change the Interwiki-Links when moving to the real-wikis
 * Disadvantage:
 * Language-Space is spelled a little bit more complicated...perhaps difficult to understand for the starters...
 * Mtwoll (talk) 18:47, 5 November 2015 (MET)

Omg I didn't know I can do that o.O I'll try, but it's possible that I'll mess up. That is I'll try as soon as we decided on what to do about it (de: /...) - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 20:03, 5 November 2015 (MET)
 * I just set Interwiki up, pardon: I were to curios how our new namespace concept will work, see http://test.scratch-wiki.info/wiki/Special:Log/interwiki Mtwoll (talk) 00:45, 7 November 2015 (MET)

just a short test Test:
...hm...funny... Mtwoll (talk)
 * Hauptseite
 * Hauptseite
 * Hauptseite
 * Hauptseite
 * -de:Hauptseite
 * Yeah, that seems to be the best idea, because for example, wikis that start here, we'll put Scratch Cookbook Home, and then if it gets its own wiki, all the links will just POOF and change. U W N (talk) 01:24, 9 November 2015 (MET)
 * An edit conflict is when someone edits and saves a page that you began editing. ErnieParke (talk) 02:10, 9 November 2015 (MET)

Decisions to be made about Namespaces
✅

We have still some technical decisions to be made here, specially what Namespace we will use for the different languages and Interwiki, see.

If you don't know Interwiki, see http://wiki.scratch.mit.edu/wiki/Scratch_Wiki:Interwiki it's a way to a) short-referencing pages of separate wikis in wikiartikles + b) set a reference to the same article in wiki of other languages in the Sidemenu. With Interwiki you can simply use a wiki-namespace (like "fr:") to Reference separate wikis (e.G. of other languages), but here in the mixed-language-wiki we also need namespaces to parting the different languages.

The matter of namespaces, not only for articles but also template, pictures and categories has already been discussed in the long thread.

But now we need a decision because their are the first authors of new languages starting (see User talk:Smrman). Perhaps its good to have that pressure of starting language authors, because we have to make decisions faster (but we can shift namespaces later, so it shouldn't keep us from starting) ;-) Mtwoll (talk) 12:14, 6 November 2015 (MET)

idea + test + decision?
I had an idea, made a test and if majority agrees we can also stay with this as an decision about namespace: I think that would work the best and I will change it now to test + demo that it works. I would be happy if you write what you think about. Mtwoll (talk) 20:59, 6 November 2015 (MET)
 * lets all new "test wikis" start in the same namespace that would be the Interwiki namespace if they already would exist as real wikis like "fr:","it:" and so on
 * lets do that also with all "demo-wikis" except writing a "-" in front of the namspace like "-en:", "-de:", "-id"
 * lets use the namespace of Interwiki for "real wikis" exact the same as everywhere like "en:", "de:", "id:"
 * +1 good idea! - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 22:01, 6 November 2015 (MET)
 * Yes, this sounds good. Support! - ErnieParke (talk) 03:07, 8 November 2015 (MET)

Done, works and I think it's good. By experimanting I also find a good way to represent all our different wikis and even wiki-groops in the Sidebar, What do you think? Mtwoll (talk) 15:32, 8 November 2015 (MET)

Idea: "Your Language"-Sidebar link
✅

Couldn't we change the Interwiki-Sidebar Plugin, so that additionally to all international scratch wikis it shows the link "Your Language" ? We could set up that up in all wikis (EN:SW at last because we had to convince the Scratch-Team what always lasts very long). That link could show anybody who is interested in setting up a wiki of his language the way here very easy. Mtwoll (talk) 12:36, 6 November 2015 (MET)

Hit counter extension has been installed
✅

You can see it at Special:PopularPages. I'm not sure where it shows the hits for each article, though. That may require changes to the skin. jvvg (talk | contribs) 19:09, 8 November 2015 (MET)
 * Great, thank you :D - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 20:07, 8 November 2015 (MET)
 * Some of the pages at the bottom appear to have 0 views--what's up with that? U W N (talk) 01:16, 9 November 2015 (MET)
 * @jvvg: Thanks again for installing counter extension here. It' seems to work quite good, so we would be happy to have it also at de: Could you install it there? Thank you very much in advance!


 * Test where it is needed (because counter is removed from wiki-version)
 * en:Special:PopularPages because of: en:Special:Version
 * de:Special:PopularPages because of: de:Special:Version
 * id:Special:PopularPages because of: id:Special:Version
 * ru:Special:PopularPages because of: ru:Special:Version
 * ja:Special:PopularPages because of: ja:Special:Version
 * nl:Special:PopularPages because of: nl:Special:Version
 * hu:Special:PopularPages because of: ru:Special:Version
 * Mtwoll (talk) 12:50, 20 November 2015 (MET)