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Revision as of 12:11, 28 October 2015 by JayceeMinecraft (talk | contribs) (Creation: new section)

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Hi everyone! Welcome to the Test Wiki, the home of many future wikis!

If anything still needs to be done, please put it below!

To Do List:


  1. Finish and polish the "Introduction to the Test Wiki" page: link (When done, please contact ErnieParke via English talk page)
  2. Once the confirm account extension, and the "Introduction to the Test Wiki" pages are done, invite all wiki volunteers to the wiki. This will be a critical time!
  3. Maybe add more support/help pages to the Wiki?
  4. Discuss organization and possible problems that might be faced.
  5. Reorganize the main page to be more useful/organized. (feel free to improve)

Specific People

  1. jvvg: Set up the confirm accounts extension.
  2. ErnieParke: Transfer all English Wiki images and templates to the Test Wiki. I am looking into doing that via Pywikibot.
  3. DACH Wiki: Update

ErnieParke (talk) 22:18, 20 October 2015 (MEST)

Thank you very much for your help to create this wiki Ernie! Mtwoll (talk) 22:51, 20 October 2015 (MEST)
It's my pleasure. I want to see what this Wiki will turn into. ErnieParke (talk) 03:56, 21 October 2015 (MEST)
Awesome, thank you for all your work :3 - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 14:13, 21 October 2015 (MEST)
For the ToDo: should be updated! - LiFaytheGoblin (talk) 14:15, 21 October 2015 (MEST)
Feel free to add on to the To-Do list LiFay! :) ErnieParke (talk) 15:39, 21 October 2015 (MEST)

Coming soon

Pretty soon, this Wiki is going to receive the ConfirmAccounts extension. I plan on using this Wiki to test various features and receive community feedback before deploying them to the language-specific Wikis (after I test for bugs and stuff on my own server, of course). Stay tuned for more as I have time! Jvvg (talk) 03:40, 21 October 2015 (MEST)

I'm looking forward to it! BTW: Can you technically help LiFay to translate the parts of the ConfirmAccounts-Plugin texts in the DACH-Scratch-Wiki that can't be translated on the wiki-side? There are some German texts that we want to change, but we don't know where to do it. I think there are some files that only can be translated with FTP-connection, or am I wrong about that? Mtwoll (talk) 20:20, 24 October 2015 (MEST)


Can you install WikiEditor extension? It is a really good tool. --JayceeMinecraft (talk) 22:01, 21 October 2015 (MEST)

Is it relay important? Could you give some arguments why we need it? ("It is a really good tool" is no argument). Why did you give no links to the Plugin? Which wikis use it? Perhaps it is relay a good idea to install that Plugin...I don't know...I only know that every plugin we add could cause dangers of php-injection that we already had at the German scratch-wiki: It was lots of work to get rid of the php-virus that we think was caused by php-injection through a poor written Plugin we installed without thinking about the dangers. So I would say: Just add really established PlugIns that are used in Wikipedia or the other scratch-wikis. And: Deciding to install a PlugIn can be a long process... I think there is much work to do here before the process will be finished. Mtwoll (talk) 20:09, 24 October 2015 (MEST)

WikiEditor is already installed with the mediawiki package. All you need to do is to put require_once "$IP/extensions/WikiEditor/WikiEditor.php"; in LocalSettings.php then it will be there. WikiEditor is an upgrade for the editing toolbar at the top of the editing box. --JayceeMinecraft (talk) 09:05, 25 October 2015 (MET)

OK, done :-) Mtwoll (talk) 15:10, 25 October 2015 (MET)

First Test for building separate language spaces

I made first tests for building separate language spaces, by copying some articles of the existing wikis here, but changing them by "replace" in an editor so, as when they were articles of "new language test wikis" here.

If we start to create the international test wiki, we (or the native speakers of that language) can follow the path of "best practice" we explored by experimenting with that method: So e.G. Italian would use language space "it", Spain would use the language space "es", french would use the language-space "fr" and so on.

First Examples

Please enlarge the existing and add more examples to find out what is the best method. Later we could perhaps use bots for that transfer...

Replacements made for transferring to test wiki

Example: [:de:]] to [[:test:]]:

  • reaplace [[ by [[:de
    • so all german articles are in a separate "de:"-namespace
  • replace {{ by {{/de
    • so all german templates are in a separate ":template/de"-namespace

To do so for Indonesian just replace "de" with "id" and so on.

Advantages of the method

  • We have exact rules for the language communities how to build up their wiki
  • The transferring in both directions could be automatic by bots: You can transfer an existing wiki complete to "test wiki" for having examples and you can transfer an wiki from "test wiki" to the "real wiki", when it is ready to be established in reality

Questions to be answered

(I already wrote down some arguments, please add your thoughts an arguments)

  • Is the replace-method explained above relay the right choice?
    • There is no "real choice" concerning the templates, because there seem to be only one option for the ":template"-namespace, so you only can divide this namespace by "/" not by ":", else the templates wouldn't work with parameters and so on
    • There could be the alternative to divide the article namespaces by "/" instead of ":" That has disadvantages for searching (because you can search in a separate ":"-namespace but not in an "/"-separated room.
  • should English articles use the "en"-namespace of the test-wiki or should they use the base namespace without "en"
    • Advantage: English is the "original wiki", perhaps it's easier to handle it special: It also would be easier to copy English articles here as a template for translation
    • Disadvantage: Why handle English language other than other languages, that's not stringently and gives an wrong example at the test wiki
  • should English templates use the "en"-namespace of the test-wiki or should they use the base namespace without "en"
    • Advantage: see "articles" + it's much easier to build "copytranslate" English articles when you don't have to care for the templates at the beginning: Just let the templates English and care for the translation of the article first. Just after the language-community has a lot of articles they can try to think about templates.
  • How to deal with Interwiki-Links
    • We could try to create two Interwiki-link-methods per language for the test-wiki: One could be directed to the corresponding article in the test-wiki, the other one could be directed to the corresponding article in wiki of that language (if it already exist): If possible we could use [[:de:de:Articlename]] to connect to the real wiki and [[:de:de:de:Articlename]] to the test-wiki, because [[de:Articlename]] is already used for the language-space of the original article.

What do you think?

Mtwoll (talk) 17:26, 24 October 2015 (MEST)

1). Is the replace-method explained above really the right choice?
I'm not sure what you're talking about here, to be truthful...
2). should English articles use the "en"-namespace of the test-wiki or should they use the base namespace without "en"
I would say en: is best for English wiki articles to act as an example for other languages. Only pages that are not for one wiki only should use their base name (without "en" "ru" ect...)
3). How to deal with Interwiki-Links
Why would we even need to Interwiki to the test wiki? I can see why we might move some de, id, en articles over for testing purposes, but wouldn't we remove them afterwards? I don't see any purpose to them...
ErnieParke (talk) 02:38, 25 October 2015 (MET)

1) With "replacement method" I mean the set of rules described in #Replacements made for transferring to test wiki

2) I completely agree!

3) You are right: If we have no Interwiki we don't have any decisions to be made about it. Also, if we use "en:Articlename" as a normal articlename and not a Intwerwiki-Link to the English wiki, it's not possible to use Interwiki in the traditional way. But if we have no Interwiki here, we also loose some big advantages, like easy referring to the other wikis (not only in articles but also in discussions and technically pages)! e.g. I planed to transfer [[:de:Scratch-Wiki:Watch]] here (I think here is a better place than in the DACH-Scratch-wiki) and that would not work without Interwiki. You can't even write [[:en:userErnieParke]] here: I don't like this state. And perhaps we make this state non-"undo-able" by switching to the concept I described in #Replacements made for transferring to test wiki . Perhaps someone has an idea to solve that?

Mtwoll (talk) 07:44, 25 October 2015 (MET)

Ideas who could help to create a wiki-farm

Here is a copy of a discussion with user:jvvg about who could help to create a wiki-farm that I think is interesting enough to be continued here with all of you:

As you see, the accounting-system and management of the international scratch-wikis is very complicated, because they are all on their own. In Wikipedia this is solved much better because there are multi-national-accounts (if you got one you got all). Also there is the possibility to run a family of wikis like explained here: . That's seem to be not so easy, because there they are still discussion different possibilities how to do it. I think we should step forward even without having this matter solved, but we should have this solution in mind, so we have someday a administration-minimal self-maintaining solution.

I just saw that there is a group if wiki-developers trying actually solve this issue, see Perhaps we should join them? Browsing through the members of that group I found an interesting entry: .He works for Brikimedia a wiki-farm about LEGO and speaks English, German and French! As you surly know there are some connections between LEGO and Scratch and en:user:Lightnin even moved from Scratch Team to LEGO (see . So it's possible that they could help us with setting up a scratch wiki farm. Should we try to get in contact? Mtwoll (talk) 05:33, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I probably don't have the time to join that project, but if you or anyone else wants to join or use their code, that would be awesome. However, I doubt that simply because someone works with LEGO means that he knows Lightnin. LEGO is a pretty big company (however, it is still certainly possible).Jvvg (talk) 11:56, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Your right Lightnin and GeorgeBarnick must not know each other only because they both work for LEGO, but LEGO sponsored the Livelong Kindergarten (Mitch Resnick is even called the "LEGO Professor") and both worked also intensive with Mediawiki, so it could be useful for them (and also for us) to know each other. Mtwoll (talk) 23:05, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

True. I don't really know enough about this to provide any decent advice.Jvvg (talk) 00:42, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

I think I will followup this idea, if I got the time and tell you here Mtwoll (talk) 15:40, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Here are some links to the brikimedia:

Links to Brikimedia users that perhaps could help us

Interwiki Bot Mass Edit Warning

Tomorrow, in the morning (anytime 10-12 EST) and possibly afternoon ( anytime 3pm - 9 pm) I will be running Interwikibot to move all english wiki template and images to here.

Edit:On Hold ErnieParke (talk) 03:15, 25 October 2015 (MET)

Generally: Great! But: By doing first experiments with manual copying from the "real wikis" to this "test wiki" I found out that we have to think, discuss and make decisions about Automatic replacements when transferring articles and templates between "real wikis" and this "test wiki".
With the English wiki it's somewhat easier, because the "base language" of this "test wiki" is also English. With Wikis of other languages it's more difficult, because they have also many "mediawiki syntactic"-words that are translated, e.g. [[File:Scratch logo.png|right]] could be [[Datei:Scratch logo.png|rechts]] in the German DACH-scratch-wiki (using the "wikis-base-language" for Mediawiki-syntax is optional, alternative you also could use English, but in DACH-wiki we use German language for that).
But also concerning transferring the English wiki here there are some decisions to be made (and I think we didn't experiment enough until now, to have a complete picture) : Most important is, if English templates shall have a separate namespace (not a real ":"-namespace, else templates would not work, but the "/"-namespace (I hope you understand #Questions to be answered even with my bad knowledge of English ;-). In the moment I tent to "no namespace for English templates". Perhaps you do some manual experiments yourself and define a written set of replacement rules here: I'm also very keen on the result of your "bot-based-mass-transfer", but perhaps we could avoid problems if we experiment and think a little bit more before doing something that has no easy "undo"... Mtwoll (talk) 06:54, 25 October 2015 (MET)

a) I can test this on my bot first. I would put in what I want it to do, and the bot would say what it wanted to do (but not actually do it). Would you like to see a list of what it would do?

b) Anyway, I don't see a problem with mediawiki syntactic words. New wikis can use File: until we transfer them to their own website. I think I could even swap out File: with Datei: with InterwikiBot (given some testing and research first).

c) Why are we transferring the English Wiki here? Isn't the Test Wiki for new language wikis (Arabic, Chinese, Ukrainian), not established wikis (English, DACH, Japanese)?

d) I would think putting English templates at Template:En/Name sounds good. Also, Image:En_Name sounds good. What do you think?

e) By the way, thank you for commenting. I did not know of these problems. ErnieParke (talk) 16:25, 25 October 2015 (MET)

a)1) Yes, testing is always good. If you want and it's not much effort for you, you could have me a look at your testing results before doing it in reality. I would also trust in your abilities without having a look, so it's completely up to you to decide if a "second look" helps or slows down things that could be easier changed after seeing the result. Mtwoll (talk) 10:50, 26 October 2015 (MET)
b)2) I agree
c)3) Transferring the English Wiki (or parts of it) here could give a good example how articles of non-existing wikis must be changed in comparison to the "real wiki". Replace [[en:Articlename]] with [[it:Articlename]] is easier to understand tahn explaning it in an other way to an scratcher from italy. Mtwoll (talk) 10:50, 26 October 2015 (MET)
d)4) Yes, so you can decide which templates an pictures did come from the English wiki and could be replaced later with native ones.
e)5) Your welcome, I don't know many things about Mediawiki either, it's all "leaning by doing". Because I'm used to "non English Wikis" I found out some things more about that, but I think there still is much knowledge missing, that could help us making the "international scratch wiki idea" real: Perhaps tt would help, to get a real experienced member of an existing "wiki farm" like Wikipedia or perhaps Brikimedia aboard.
Mtwoll (talk) 10:50, 26 October 2015 (MET)

Indent style

I don't think we should use the "Indent style" of the English scratch-wiki in our discussion here, because it has big disadvantages and I would immediately suggesting to change it even in the English wiki to the "Indent style" we use in the German DACH-Scratch-Wiki, if not everybody was used to it there since many years. In the English wiki every new post to a thread gets an indent: After a few posts you are at the end of the line: That makes no scene, because the indent nearly has no information (only: "Here starts a new post"). The DACH-Indent-style is different: Here yo make an indent only if a new author starts posting and every author stays in the number of indents where he started with his first post to the thread. So you are not at the end of the line so fast and you have the additional information to see who did the post with one look.

Example English Indent Style

I have a suggestion- userA

Please tell.. - userB
I want o change our indent style - userA
Relay? - userB
I'm used to the traditional style, where is the advantage? - userC
We would have the advantage that we are not at the end of the line so soon.. - userA
Is that all? - userB
Additionally we see who is posting with "one look" - userA
That could be a good idea! - userC
Yes, let's try it! - userB
Ok, we do it - userA
What was this discussion about? I didn't got anything... - userD
Please read before you ask ;-) - userC
It was about Indent Style - userA
And, did you make a decision? - userD
yes - userB
What? - userD
yes, we want to try the DACH-wiki-Indent-style - userB

<end of example English wiki Indent Style>

Example DACH Indent Style

I have a suggestion- userA

Please tell... - userB

I want o change our indent style - userA

Relay? - userB
I'm used to the traditional indent style, where is the advantage? - userC

We would have the advantage that we are not at the end of the line so soon.. - userA

Is that all? - userB

Additionally we see who is posting with "one look" - userA

That could be a good idea! - userC
Yes, let's try it! - userB

Ok, we do it! - userA

What was this discussion about? I didn't got anything... - userD
Please read before you ask ;-) - userC

It was about Indent Style - userA

And, did you make a decision? - userD
yes - userB
What? - userD
Yes, we want to try the DACH-wiki-Indent-style - userB

<end of example DACH wiki Indent Style>

What do you think? Mtwoll (talk) 08:03, 25 October 2015 (MET)

That is not exactly the English indent style. The problem is that not everyone follows it, so it turns into what you posted above. The indent style we use is:

Welcome to the Scrratch Wiki! - userA

Hello! - userB
Welcome to the Scratch Wiki! - userC
Welcome! Here are some tutorial links that you might find helpful: Links - userD
Thank you a lot! I will read through them in a moment :-D
How do you link? - userB
You link like this![[ Page Name ]] - userC
See this page for help: Link - userE

Thank you a lot everyone! - userB

You're welcome! - userE

<end of example English wiki Indent Style>

Once we hit 6 indents, we outdent to 0 indents and use a template to show that.
I support using the DACH indent style for the test wiki because I imagine there won't be too many editors per discussion. ErnieParke (talk) 15:49, 25 October 2015 (MET)


Can I help create this wiki? I have done most of the things on the to-do list. :)--JayceeMinecraft (talk) 13:11, 28 October 2015 (MET)